I made the comment yesterday that one of the major problems facing the renewal groups in the PC(USA) is that they have a defective understanding of Presbyterianism and ecclesiology in general. It is my position that what the PC(USA) has currently is a hybrid of episcopacy and congregationalism. In other words you have a governing body that uses Presbyterian terms (Presbytery, Synod, General Assembly, Elder, Deacon, etc…) but functions with characteristics more fitting both episcopacy and congregationalism.
The episcopacy comes out both in the day-to-day operations of a Presbytery and in how the entire body from General Assembly to local church member operates. Firstly, anyone who has spent time around the PC(USA) knows that all of the power in the denomination resides in Louisville. It is very much a top-down organization. Nothing happens without some involvement of the myriad department heads at the GA-level. [As a side comment here this is something PCA brothers have noted to me about the growing influence/power coming from Atlanta and how some of the issues in the PCA are from this dimension]. Secondly, the presence of the “Executive Presbyter” in PC(USA) Presbyteries is something that is just non-existent in any of the other presbyterian bodies. While the EP may vary from presbytery-to-presbytery the vast majority of EP’s are Full-Time and exhibit much power over their presbyteries.
The Presbyterian system traditionally (and how it is practiced today in confessionally reformed presbyterian bodies) bears little resemblance to how the current PC(USA) operates at the GA, Synod, and Presbytery levels. Presbyterianism has always been marked by the place it puts the majority of the power in church life. This place is in the local session not in a bureaucracy at the top-level of the denomination.
Now the Congregationalism is exemplified by how individual churches in the denomination function and see themselves and the rational given in the document submitted by the new renewal group in its understanding how they can continue to remain linked to other congregations that they otherwise find to be defective in theology/practice. Traditionally one of the things that delineated Congregationalists and Presbyterians was how they understood the local church to be related to other bodies of like-minded believers. If one looks at how NACC or CCCC works it fits almost perfectly with what the renewal group is looking for in their new proposed system. A group with the barest requirements for membership that has no real tangible connectivity and can garner the benefits of a larger organization (read here share legacy and medical costs). Presbyterianism for 500 years has believed that there is a real tangible relationship between each and every local church in communion. This is one of the reasons why if you read any presbyterian manual of discipline there is great care to show why it is so vital that presbyteries oversee the work being done by their Ministers and if need be remove the leaven from the lump.
I am looking to discuss current church developments in relation to a recent excommunication by the Presbyterian USA at the local church level. Kentucky (headquarters) and local presbytery (Western PA) overturned the local false pastors excommunication of local member. Yet I have learned quite a bit, being unfamiliar at the time to the current world church conditions and agenda, but at this time have a real experience to communicate as the cracks within the false doctrine within numerous churches have effected the congregation level, eg. the recent excommunication I am referring to here locally. This has been going on historically, I understand, but I did not have this false church agenda revealed by the light of God until recently as to the real names and faces who are actively pushing this deceptive ecumenical movement within various church self-proclaimed denominations, namely PC (USA), as I do understand now.
Are you willing to discuss this? I have a news message to share that involves an excommunication at a local church within the PC (USA), and your point about the PC(USA) being episcopal in nature, and thus, wearing the clothes of the Roman Catholic Church while professing to be Presbyterian is their own ill-awakening and undoubtedly by some within the PC(USA), conscious, thus, they are awakened to the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is shaping who they are now.
I came across your older blog when I was searching for Roman Catholic PC (USA) ties (alliances) and your older blog came up because you made a comment as to the PC (USA) is becoming more Roman Catholic. I completely agree and would also say it is Roman Catholic, it is false doctrine found in the Scriptures, simply just in a new form with the same essential deception that not only the Scriptural quotes of Jesus Christ that the Gospel writers led by the Will of God had warned us, but also found within writings of Paul, Peter, Jude, James, etc…. and undoubtedly traced back into the Old Testament too for the same lie is the old lie, essentially, not listening to God’s Word in the garden of eden but rather the sin of Adam and Eve listening to Satan.
Blessed is the saving grace of Jesus Christ who is God saving His chosen people. Amen.
Benjamin –
Interesting post. Give it time. The movement is very very young and may deal with these issues yet. I for one want to see true connectionalism based on common theology. Part of the problem of the PC(USA) is not knowing that you can trust what you will hear wherever you go — church, Presbytery, whatever. If the new group has the same problem only in evangelical clothes but without a solid Reformed theology, it could be in real trouble, admittedly.
Jason.
I understand, but in reality the “movement” is not really that young. Most of these gentlemen were involved with the confessing church group, the New Wineskins, etc. Your last point concerning “who you can trust” is a true problem and why these men need to realize that they can only find that trust in a real Presbyterian system and that it is going to come with a cost.
Benjamin –
Agreed in the sense that the “renewal” movement has been around in the denomination ever since it became the PC(USA), pretty much. It’s taken different faces and had different leaders, but yes, old=new in many ways. What I’m saying is that this movement appears different for a couple of reasons.
While many people have been distraught that it was led by “tall church steeple pastors,” I see this as a potential show of strength. If there is to be a final exodus, it needs to be done with large churches protecting the smaller ones, in my opinion. (That’s a key fault with many of the renewal movements…small churches have a much harder time leaving because we are far more indebted to presbyteries than larger churches.) This may or may not happen.
I also see an acknowledgment that the liberal side is not going away — “beating” them is not an option, nor is it necessarily the best way forward. There comes a time when the prophets stop warning and start proclaiming impending doom. I think we might have reached that point.